The Speculist: Going Veggie?

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Going Veggie?

George Dvorsky makes some pretty good arguments for giving up meat-eating, most of which would be hard to disagree with -- although #4 is a fairly obnoxious straw man argument. Unfortunately, that word "obnoxious" more or less sums up George's entire approach. I have very little use for sanctimonious self-righteousness applied to any other area of life, so it's not surprising that it leaves me cold when applied even to an issue with which I tend to agree.

Please note: this is no personal attack on George. We at the Speculist are big Dvorsky fans. I believe Stephen quoted him in the entry immediately preceding this one. The terms "obnoxious," "sanctimonious," and "self-righteous" are applied strictly to Geroge's arguments. On a personal level, he's a swell (and very smart) guy. Unfortunately, when he calls all us meat-eaters "bad people," I'm not sure such a distinction can be made on our collective behalf. (However, I have no problem with being called "bitch." In the context presented, it seems more colloquial and affectionate than anything else. Kind of like being called "Dawg" or "Home Slice," only more emphatic.)

I've written more than once on my belief that the world will one day be a meatless -- although not necessarily vegetarian -- place. I agree that it's wrong to cause animals undue pain. I agree that our current industrialized livestock management practices are abhorrent. And, from a purely practical standpoint, I think we'll have a much stronger moral footing with our AI descendants if they see us treating weaker / arguably inferior life forms with as much kindness as possible. In short, I think I'm just about ready to be persuaded that I should give up eating dead animals altogether.

Unfortunately, George's piece has pushed me no closer to the brink. He divides his time between preening over the superiority of his position vis a vis his listeners and slamming them for not being as enlightened as he is. For crying out loud, the flushed, sweaty Bible-thumpers who blustered their way through the endless revival meetings I endured as kid in western Kentucky knew better than to take that approach.

Next week, the Boulder Futures Salon will be discussing the future of persuasion. I think I'll bring a copy of George's blog entry as an example of how little progress has been made in rhetorical technique. Here we have a world-class futurist taking an "I'm good; you're bad: be like ME" approach that even the most backward fundamentalists dropped decades ago. You see a lot of this kind of thing among "progressive" thinkers when dealing with the great unwashed who haven't yet achieved their level of enlightenment. (An example -- for whatever reason, atheists seem particularly prone to these excesses when arguing against belief in God. This could be a reverse application of the old adage that "converts are the worst." Which would also apply to George, I suppose, what with his five-year tenure as a morally superior being.)

Anyhow, here's hoping that George finds a means of making his case worthy of his subject. It deserves it.


UPDATE: Dvorsky follows up:

Now, in regards to the accusation that I'm a 'bigot' or intolerant of meat eaters, that's an interesting point. Bigotry, I suppose, is relative. Let's imagine for a moment that I had written an article titled 'Racists are bad people,' or 'Homophobes are bad people.' Do you think I would have received the same kind of negative response? Hardly. Aside from a few anachronistic and unenlightened perspectives I'd get a slew of comments saying, 'right on, brother.'

But the fact that I didn't get these sorts of supportive comments, aside from a small minority, indicates to me that our transition to a mostly meat-free society is a process still in its infancy.

This is interesting. I accused George of making obnoxious arguments, not being a bigot. But I doubt I would have much problem with obnoxious behavior towards racists or other bigots. It's important to be aware of where we are in the transition, and I tend to agree that we're in the very early stages.

A century and a half ago, a proto-Dvorsky might have written a self-righteous and obnoxious essay entitled "Why People Opposed to Racially Mixed Marriages are Bad." From where I sit, that argument could have been made as sanctimoniously as the essayist desired, and I've got no problem. But a mixed-marriage fence-sitter (or even a supporter of mixed marriages) from that era might have reasonably argued that it's early days, and proto-Dvorsky is doing little to help the cause.

Still, if he changed even a few minds, and more importantly, if he got people talking about the issue...

It's a tough call. Maybe in a world of screaming memes, obnoxious is the way to go.

UPDATE 2: Some pretty good discussion with George over in the comments of the BetterHumans post.

Comments

It would be unprofitable for American consumers to embrace health. We're media-fed cattle being being milked by the government and served to foreign interests. "Moo"

For contrast on the vegetarian idea, my nick is an amusing link.

I live in Boulder and am interested in the "Boulder Futures Salon" you mention in the article. Any information you can provide?

Sorry to be off topic.

Details here:

http://www.boulderfuture.org/home/home.html

Hope to see you on Friday!

His argument is worse than biggoted. It's wrong too. Meat is unhealthy? That's not true: the healthiest diet you can have is lean meats (especially fish and poultry), fresh vegetables and a side of fruit and coarse grains. That's from a heart doctor. Fish oil is some of the best oil you can possibly get, and vegan women often lose their unborn children from a lack of protein. Humans aren't vegetarians by nature, and demanding that they go against their nature will fail.

From a moral standpoint, I'm not sure I buy it either. It seems too paralyzing to me. Where do you draw the line? We don't eat cows why, becaue they're mammals? And hurting other mammals is wrong? What about birds? Fish? Bugs? Plants? Where do you draw the line? This sort of attitude eventually results in nihilism. Life feeds on life, and people who don't get that are a little removed from reality.

Of course, from a transhumanist perspective, we might someday find a way to get our meat without killing animals, and some people will find that comforting. Some people will go that route because of lower prices, and that's fine too. But by what ethics do you support granting animals the same rights and priveledges as full humans but not, say, punishing them for hurting one another? Do we need to stop treating them as property too?

From a completely selfish perspective, I can justify all ethics as a way of investing in the world around me to get a bigger payback later on. You can't do that with protecting animals. A cow doesn't give you anything worthwhile except milk and beef. The notion of presenting robots with a "good example" doesn't wash with me: we don't know what kind of perspective these robots might have, and it may very well be touchy-feely, illogical "morality" that gives rise to the Great Robot Rebellion or whatever people are afraid of.

My body is just meat, my genetics just code, and I am unafraid of messing with either. I'd also be willing to mess with the meat and code of my children. I'm also willing to exploit the meat and code of other animals, whose intelligence is vastly inferior to mine and will be treated as my property regardless. I cannot see how suddenly refusing to DIGEST said meat is somehow "moral highground."

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